****THE COMPLEGALITARIAN BLOG HAS REOPENED FOR BUSINESS
AT A NEW LOCATION WITH SOME NEW RULES.****

Adj. Pertaining to complementarianism and egalitarianism.

***Working to be a safe place for all sides to share.***


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Friday, October 17, 2008

Sacred Marriage and Love & Respect: A Conversation, by John Hobbins and Marilyn Johnson, Part 1

Part One

John to Marilyn:

I want to thank you for recommending Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas. I picked it up today and have found it absolutely lovely. I will now look for Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs.

Marilyn to John:

Hi John,

Sacred Marriage is a beautiful book, isn't it?

I have such respect for Thomas because his writing reflects a level of surrender to God that most of us only talk about. I don't think that anyone but Gary Thomas could have written Sacred Marriage, in part because the book reflects Thomas' personal marital experiences. To support his family and allow himself time to write, Thomas conducts seminars based on his various books. He typically travels about 120 days a year, and his wife home schools their three children. So, the dynamic in his marriage is that approximately 40 weeks a year, he is gone for three days and his wife is alone with the children. He arrives home from a seminar exhausted by both the public speaking and the demands for one-on-one counseling. His wife, in turn, is exhausted because she has spent three intense days alone with the children. Upon his return, is he to serve his exhausted wife? Or is his wife to serve her exhausted husband? The answer, of course, is "Yes"! It is this dynamic in Thomas' marriage that produced this beautiful book. (However, I think the case can be made that the tone of the book is a bit too somber. For the average couple that doesn't face these stresses on an ongoing basis, shouldn't
there be seasons of pure joy?)

John to Marilyn:

I like the somber tone of the book! I can't stand the unrelenting sweetness and light of the upbeat self-help culture. Thomas won my heart immediately with his first quote, from Socrates:

"By all means marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher."

Self-helpers will immediately reply that we can be happy and philosophers at the same time. But that's not particularly realistic.

You know, the Bible is famous for "texts of terror," not just stories with Hollywood endings. Thomas performs a real service in describing sympathetically the difficult marriages of Anne Morrow and Charles Lindbergh, and Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln. Most marriages are difficult. I thought he could have done far better with Heloise and Abelard and John Wesley's marriage.

Thomas stays away from the terminology of the Great Tradition out of deference to evangelical sensibilities, but he quotes it with great skill. His Francis de Sales quote is priceless:

"The state of marriage is one that requires more virtue and constancy than any other. It is a perpetual exercise of mortification . . . From this thyme plant, in spite of the bitter nature of its juice, you may be able to draw and make the honey of a holy life."

De Sales develops a sacramental view of marriage: marriage as a means of grace. Thomas, who speaks of "Sacred Marriage," is doing the same.

Wednesday, October 15, 2008

True Woman Manifesto

Recently CBMW and Revive Our Hearts had what they called a True Woman conference where they unveiled what they called the True Woman Manifesto.

http://www.truewoman.com/assets/files/TW08_Manifesto.pdf

I am wondering what the comps that hang out here think of it.

Would they sign it or encourage their wife to sign?
Do they have any concerns with it and so would decline to sign?

Thanks, Don

Tuesday, October 14, 2008

the joy of complementarianism

Some women who function within complementarian marriages and churches state that they experience joy from being complementarian. I invite any complementarians who visit this blog to testify to that joy. Tell us about the joy of obeying biblical commands as you understand them, but also tell us of personal joy you experience from living as a complementarian.

UPDATE (Oct. 15): I realize that complementarians often feel outnumbered by egalitarians on this blog. And complementarians who comment often feel that their comments are denigrated, even though we moderators try to make this a safe place. Therefore, for this post, I will only approve positive comments about the joys of being a complementarian.

In other post I will give egalitarians the opportunity to tell about joy they have experienced from functioning as egalitarians within marriage and the church.

Sunday, October 12, 2008

clarification of posting guidelines and moderation

Our posting guidelines state:
Please word posts and comments so that they reflect biblical character (such as "speaking the truth in love", Eph. 4:15). Do not speculate about the motives of others for believing as they do. Refrain from using sarcasm. Focus on issues, not personalities. Comments which do not follow these guidelines may be deleted without warning or explanation.
At times I am asked by someone to disapprove comments from someone else for making various kinds of statements which are not covered by these guidelines.

For instance, I may be asked to disapprove a comment from someone who writes, "Complementarian belief leads to abuse of women." I may not correctly understand the guidelines that I have developed for this blog (this would not be the first time I have not properly understood something I have said), but I don't think that such a generalization can be disapproved by the posting guidelines. Instead, if you disagree with the generalization, you have every right to say so and give reasons why you do.

On the other hand, if someone writes, "Joe Smith believes that I am not a biblical Christian for saying that women should have full equality with men," I would not approve that comment unless Joe Smith has actually said what is claimed in the comment. The comment would be stating something about Joe Smith which is a personal conclusion based on how Joe's comments impact you, but we do not have sufficient evidence from Joe's comments themselves to support the comment about him.

It is difficult enough for us moderators (and we are more than one) to try to disapprove comments which contain things which the posting guidelines ask us not to write. It would be nearly impossible for us to disapprove all forms of logical errors, over-generalizations, etc.

I do not enjoy putting posting reminders and clarifications up as posts. I far prefer posts about the issues we are concerned about on this blog. But clarifying moderation policy is a necessary price to pay for having a blog where we truly attempt to provide a safe place for those with differing opinions about gender issues to discuss them. We really do try to have this be a safe place. But we moderators cannot create safety. We can only do what we can to contribute to safety. The rest is up to each of us to try to speak to each other in a way that is true to our convictions yet also gracious toward those with whom we disagree. Always remember that there are other forums which focus on gender issues which do not allow public comments or if they do, do not allow comments which disagree with the views of the hosts.

Have a good, safe week, everyone!

P.S. I wish I could moderate the comments more quickly these days, but I can't. My wife and I are visiting family. I do not have good access to the Internet while visiting. To get on the Internet I have to drive 3 miles to a grocery store which has a wireless network. Or I just discovered an unsecured wireless network on a residential street 1 1/2 miles from where we are staying with family. So, please be patient if you don't see your comment appear on the blog as soon as it might when I'm home.

Saturday, October 11, 2008

Equity in Decision-Making Equals Much Lower Violence Against Wives

Since the question, "What do the studies say," is something we've been discussing on and off in the comments boxes, I wanted to share the following, emphasis mine.

"Studies also indicate that this traditional view may be one of the factors
involved in creating an environment for abuse. The rate of wife beating in
couples where the husband dominated was found in a study by sociologist Kersti
Yllo to be 300 percent greater than for egalitarian couples. The conclusion of
the analysis was "regardless of context, violence against wives is lower
among couples where there is a relative equality in decision-making...In general, domination of decision making by husbands is associated with the highest levels of violence against wives
." Other studies have found
similar results, the majority of battering of wives occurs in homes where the
husband holds the reins of power." [full article here]


With quick and clear explanation that the comps participating on Complegalitarian do NOT support wife abuse (and please do hear that), I think that the above quote demonstrates why so many participants here have strong concerns about the teachings of other complementarians and complementarian churches that teach and believe that "God's way" is males having authority over females.

Friday, October 10, 2008

voluntary submission to comp or egal positions

Complementarians and egalitarians both claim that their interpretation of the Bible on gender issues is the biblical position. I have read a number of blog posts and other writings from complementarians which imply, if not directly state, that those who do not hold to a complementarian position are in error, not following biblical teaching properly. I have to assume that some egalitarians would say the same about those who disagree with their position.

Related to this issue is the question of whether or not those who believe that their position is biblical believe or teach that following their position is voluntary. For instance, do "biblical complementarians" teach that married couples in their churches or spouses in marriages can volunteer to live by complementarian principles? We could add to that question, "Can they volunteer to live by those principles and remain biblical?

Some appear to take the position that it is appropriate (biblical?) to voluntarily choose to follow a comp or egal position. Is it the teaching of standard (whatever that is) comp and egal teaching that choosing to follow that teaching is "voluntary"?

Thursday, October 2, 2008

What is Final Decision-Making Authority?

One of the ways complementarians typically try to define the kind of authority they see a husband possessing in the home is by speaking of "final decision-making authority." Yet that phrase can be understood to mean a variety of different things, and the meaning which someone ascribes to it says a lot about what they understand complementarianism to be.

Some people hear "final decision-making authority" as an affirmation that the husband's word is law. There are a variety of extreme patriarchal expressions of this which seem to imply (or state outright) that the husband is the one who discerns and decides God's will for the family, that the husband's will is ultimate and should never be questioned, that he may choose to consider his wife's input but he is under no obligation to do so. Complementarians and egalitarians are united in decrying this authoritarian and oppressive view.

A close corollary to the my-word-is-law approach, and one which often accompanies it, is the oppressive arrangement in which the wife is expected to run every conceivable decision past her husband. Beyond having some form of "final decision-making authority," the husband in this instance has sole decision-making authority. Essentially, she is not permitted to make any decision. He must micromanage everything. Again, extreme patriarchalists may affirm such levels of control, but egalitarians and complementarians do not.

Others hear "final decision-making authority" as meaning that the husband has a kind of tie-breaking vote when husband and wife do not agree. In this view, the spouses are expected to strive for unanimity where possible, the wife may have considerable input into the decision-making process, and she may have the freedom to make all kinds of decisions without consulting her husband. Yet when husband and wife disagree, the husband is seen as able to cast the deciding vote. I think many complementarians hold this view, which may or may not be oppressive depending on how the husband wields his voting power. If this ability to play a decision-making trump card is used by the husband to domineer his wife, such a marriage won't look very different from the my-word-is-law type of marriage described above. If, however, the husband uses his deciding vote only as a last resort, such a marriage can exhibit a great deal of mutuality and consensus in decision-making.

Egalitarians tend to argue that an arrangement like that is fundamentally oppressive and potentially dangerous because it still gives a sinful man ultimate authority over his wife. I think they certainly have a point.

Some hear "final decision-making authority" and emphasize the finality of the decision. In other words, once an issue has been decided, there is an implicit assumption that the issue should never be brought up again. Wives in this situation may feel not only that they have been trumped by the husband's final vote, but also that once his vote has been cast, she can have no basis for further appeal. Again, it won't be long before women in this situation will begin to feel they have no real voice in their marriages.

For my wife, Lisa, and I, "final decision-making authority" is not a vote to be cast so much as a general framework for decision-making. To begin with, I certainly don't feel I have to make or approve every decision. Lisa makes a variety of decisions, both big and small, affecting not just herself but the whole family, without being required to consult me first. In a high percentage of cases she will consult me first, perhaps because she wants to use me as a sounding board, or because she wants to make sure I don't have any strong objections or scheduling conflicts, or simply because it's a decision we really need to make together.

I likewise am free to make a variety of decisions on my own without first consulting Lisa, but in a high percentage of cases I do consult her. This dynamic is not about rights and obligations so much as it's about mutual courtesy and our desire to benefit from each other's wisdom. In other words, we generally make decisions as a team, and there are no set "rules" for how the decision-making process is carried out.

That's a largely mutual decision-making process which I doubt many egalitarians would object to strongly. So where is there any sense of my having a "final decision-making authority"?

To begin with, Lisa and I both operate with the tacit understanding that when a decision needs to be made, I am ultimately the one responsible to do it. This is not the right to a final vote so much as the responsibility to articulate a decision when one needs to be made. Like the chairman of a board or the leader of a committee who summarizes and integrates the various opinions and ideas which have been expressed, I'm usually the one who summarizes the discussion and says, "Okay, here's what we're gonna do . . ."

Seeing this as ultimately my responsibility helps motivate me to step up to the plate when I might otherwise try to avoid making a decision. And when I do make the decision that needs to be made, Lisa typically finds that comforting rather than oppressive.

But what about the times when Lisa and I do not completely agree? How do we handle that?

In the vast majority of cases, one of us will simply defer to the other. If one feels strongly about something and the other does not, the one to whom it is less important will typically be the one to defer. We love each other, and if we can make each other happy by giving in, we're usually quite willing to do so.

There have, of course, been times in our marriage where we each felt strongly about some point of contention, and those are the times we've argued, and discussed, and cried, and prayed, and yelled, and reconciled, and talked until we're blue in the face. When we just can't seem to see eye to eye on something, and it's a decision we can put off, we'll do so. If we have to do something, then we'll reach some provisional compromise and go on with our lives until the issue crops up again.

There are a few things I've learned over the years from these various decision-making crises. First, I've seen that Lisa and I tend to make decisions differently. I tend to be very slow to make decisions. I'll put off making a decision until I've analyzed all possibilities, anticipated potential pitfalls, counted the costs, and become convinced that a particular course of action is the right one. The downside of my approach is that I can often slip into "analysis paralysis." The upside is that once the decision has been made, I rarely ever second-guess it, and I accept any challenges which result from it as challenges I knew ahead of time I might face.

Lisa, on the other hand, is quicker to become convinced that a particular course of action is the right one. She'll certainly weigh a decision ahead of time, but not to the same extent I do, and she isn't nearly as prone to paralysis and indecision as I am. Conversely, she is far more likely to second-guess a decision once it's been made, wondering if the grass would have been greener if we had taken a different direction.

As I see it, our different approaches to decision-making complement each other perfectly. She's there to prod me into action when action needs to be taken, and I'm there to reassure her when she starts wondering if we made the right decision.

By the way, these tendencies are one reason I never view any decision we make as "final" in the sense that it can never be revisited. I may think something has been "settled," but if Lisa brings it up again, it obviously hasn't been settled to her satisfaction. In many cases, she just needs reassurance, but in some cases, it has become clear that there's something more which needs to be addressed. I may not want to reopen that old can of worms, but if Lisa needs us to, we will.

Another thing I've learned from these decision-making crises is that those are the times which have helped us grow the most. They're painful, and the temptation is always there to cut the disagreement short. There are times I'm certainly tempted to say, "Look, this is what we're doing and that's final." There are also times when Lisa is tempted to throw up her hands and say, "Look, you decide; I don't care any more." But acting the tyrant is not leadership, and knuckling under is not submission. When I feel Lisa has just given up, I don't proclaim victory; I keep the conversation going with the goal of reaching agreement. When Lisa feels I'm just being stubborn, she begins praying that God would change my heart, and tries for the umpteenth time to explain her position in terms I can understand.

Finally, these crises have taught me that the decision we're trying to make is usually not the ultimate source of the conflict. In many cases, the issue at hand is not really the issue at heart. Instead, the point of disagreement is merely the catalyst for exposing insecurities, fears, concerns, and sins we were previously unaware of. We certainly don't enjoy the seasons of strife, but if we were to use some concept of authority or submission to cut those seasons short, our love for each other would never have grown so deep.

So as a complementarian, do I affirm that the husband possesses "final decision-making authority"? As a means of control or a way to silence my wife, certainly not. As a trump card or final vote, no. As a general framework in which decisions can be reached, yes. As a call to accept responsibility for making decisions together with my wife, yes.

Is my view what most complementarians mean when they speak of someone having to make the "final decision"? I don't know. I think many adopt the tie-breaking vote view, but most of the comp marriages I've seen operate very much like mine. The wives are strong and active in the decision-making process, yet there is nevertheless an expectation on the part of both spouses that the ultimate responsibility for family decisions falls to the husband. It certainly isn't the model of marriage most egalitarians articulate, but it's a far cry from the oppressive authoritarian relationships which they may envision when they hear the phrase "final decision-making authority."